Hopefully you'll see this blog the day you get your "It's not us, it's you" notification from your TL (team leader or boss for Non-Epic folks). Standard Epic operating procedure says that you'll have 6 weeks to complete or hand off any open projects; during this time you are free to look for your next job. Epic will probably ask you to resign. This will get listed as a "voluntary turnover" on their ledgers, which looks a lot better than involuntary turnover rates.
Every bit of advice you've probably heard up to this point in your career says that it is better to resign than to be fired. Like many things, Epic defies the norms here. Epic skills are in high demand everywhere in the country. The day you put your resume on Monster or Dice, you will get phone calls and emails asking you when your non-compete is up so someone (hospital or consulting firm) can hire you.
When your TL asks you for the your resignation, make him wait. If you find a new job within the 6 weeks, resign. If you don't, make them fire you. Every recruiting firm in the nation has dealt with Epic; they know the culture. They know that even though you were fired, it's through no fault of your own and it's just Epic's way.
First takeaway point: Don't resign. Until you have an exit strategy, don't resign. Once you have an out, by all means, get out. But if you don't find a job in the 6 week probationary period, make Epic fire you. This will come in handy later, if you need unemployment benefits, Badgercare, food stamps, etc.
That's a wrap for now. Subsequent articles will deal with maximizing your job search, spreading your network, and finding meaningful work that doesn't violate the non-compete. If I figure out how to get the non-compete overturned or voided, that information will be given to you ASAP.
If you have specific questions, leave a comment. I'll moderate them, so don't be surprised when they don't show up immediately. I'm posting as
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI am interested in working for Epic and have heard the horror stories. My question relates to what you think one should do. Would it be best to start out at Epic and try to build a career later? or better to just go elsewhere from the start?
Thanks
It is a good place to work for a couple of years. Once you get your certifications and the non-compete expires, you can pretty much write your own ticket. Epic build skills are in HIGH demand all over the country. You just have to make it through the non-compete period. Go in there with an exit-strategy--something to get you throught the one year non-compete. Back to school for a master's degree, spend a year working for Mom and Dad's business, save your salary and spend a year travelling. Just have something that'll get you through the year and look adequate on a resume.
ReplyDeleteDo you know if there is a non compete agreement that Epic makes with its customers regarding their customer's employees? For example, I work as an Epic Implementor for healthcare organization A that is an Epic certified partner. If I decide to work for healthcare organization B or a consulting firm that is an Epic partner (or not), will Epic blacklist you? Will Epic blacklist you if they got a request from healthcare organization A?
ReplyDelete@Anon 1/10/12
ReplyDeleteNobody knows for sure about the blacklist. If it exists, the scenario is exactly as you describe. The corollary to that is that if you go through with it and Epic does end up blacklisting you, you'll have a good legal case on your hands. "Tortious empolyment interference" is the term I've heard--basically, in this economy, Epic is effectively preventing you from getting a job. Even though Epic's non-compete is legally unenforceable, none of Epic's customers want to push back on this, which screws over the former employees. However, if you have proof that Epic is actively preventing you from finding meaningful work, then you might be able to get a lawyer willing to take the case.
Can any Epic employee become a consultant, assuming they get certified? I am applying as Quality Assurance/Software Tester and would not want to take the job if there is no way I can consult in the future
ReplyDeleteShort answer: yes.
DeleteLonger answer: once you have experience working at Epic, you will instantly have a leg up on the hordes who may have worked with the software, but don't have the intimate knowledge of how it all works.
Hi There,
ReplyDeleteI recently quit Epic and moved to the west coast due to a series of life changes. Have you heard of any Ex- Epic employees who have worked with existing Epic customers during the non-compete year on projects unrelated to Epic entirely? The non-compete states that I cannot work on software implementation at a customer site for 1 year after my termination. The term software seems to be very broad here and not limited to Epic projects only.
I've got first hand experience with it. For my non-compete, I worked with an existing Epic customer on their help desk, as tier 1 support--I took the phone calls from distressed doctors who couldn't remember their passwords. As long as you don't need userweb access or need to talk to TS, you can have any job you'd like at an existing customer site.
DeleteFor those looking for work during the non-compete, I would also suggest seeking out EHR consulting firms that do NOT work with Epic. I have been working steadily supporting a competitor, and got hired based solely for having worked at Epic at all. My pay now is well below what you'd make as an Epic consultant after your year is up, but it's full time with benefits to keep you going in the interim.
ReplyDeleteIs the non-compete cover all situations? For example, my spouse is a physician - she just landed a residency in texas (we live in New York). I work for a hospital, just got Epic certified for Cadence/Prelude. The implementation is slated to last 1 year. If I want to look for a job to be with my wife is having to move a legitimate reason enough to avoid the Epic police?
ReplyDeleteIn my experience, the non-compete does cover ALL situations, but that's coming from an ex-Epic employee. I don't know if they make exceptions for major family events for certified client analysts.
DeleteI currently work for a healthcare organization, that brought in people from another local hospital that has it. This hospital fired there employees after Epic was implemented, a lot of us are fearing we are losing rhere jobs since upper management know an a lot more about this system, are there positions there that hire people from healthcare to "oversee the implementation and training", and then leave when Epic goes live?
ReplyDeleteI'll answer the question I think you're asking: "Are there positions just for implementing Epic software and educating new users?"
DeleteYes. Lots of organizations hire consultants and FTEs for implementation and training, and then cut back after the initial install.
Does Epic blacklist certain consultants from having access to their UserWeb? I am not referring to past employees but can't find anything online and multiple people have mentioned to me that there is a consultant blacklist
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to leave a thank you for putting this blog together. After a year and two months at Epic, putting in the crazy hours, good evaluations, a nice raise at the one year mark, and a great bonus a month ago my fiance was seemingly out of the blue given notice that he's on his way to being fired. His TL opted to go a probationary evaluation route instead of the just straight you're fired and have 6 weeks left. He was told by his TL that he has 4 weeks to fix the issues (that weren't issues before), and if he doesn't fix them 2 weeks after the end of the 4 weeks will be his end date (so basically the 6 week option but without being "definitely" fired until four weeks into it). He was also told that at any time during the 4 week period if he decides Epic isn't for him, they'll transition him over to an up to 8 week time frame during which time he will hand off his projects and be allowed to look for jobs. Frankly we're struggling with how this firing process makes sense, and this probationary fix it option was (shockingly) set up for him to fail. Since we know he's failed already we are trying to figure out if he should go in and resign so to speak or wait the four weeks out (given money constraints, the frustration/stress factor, future job prospects/reputation, etc.), and in struggling with this decision I have found this blog to be a tremendous help. Glad to know this isn't an isolated case, and happy to have some advice from a former Epic employee on what we should do rather than just from his vague and contradictory TL. Thanks again!
ReplyDeleteThis was the same situation I was in when I worked at Epic. In fact, I had it go a step farther into the crazy, I was in the process of trying to change teams and had been asked to make a couple of changes and after I did and was told everything was going great they then threw the above at me.
DeleteMy situation was politically motivated though. Someone at Epic who was one of the more senior employees decided they didn't like me and wanted me gone. The fun? They hired 3 people to do the work I was doing on my own. (Love past team mates for keeping me up to speed)
How do you get on with epic to obtain those certifications and training. I would love the experience.
ReplyDeleteThe only options I know of are getting hired by Epic, by an Epic customer, or by a consulting firm that specializes in Epic. To my knowledge, Epic doesn't take walk-ins.
DeleteYour best bet is to get hired by a hospital IT department as an entry-level analyst, then if you're worth the investment, they'll send you for certification.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteThanks for writing such an informative blog. I applied for EPIC an year ago but had a very negative experience with the Proctor as the PC was not working properly. Do EPIC believes in giving second chances? Also, now they ask you to fill an inquiry with your Transcripts. What's the point behind that?
Regards,
KZ
I'm not familiar with Epic ever being keen on second chances. However, at the monthly staff meetings, there was the occasional "boomerang"--someone who left Epic and came back. They got a boomerang presented to them on stage in front of everyone. As for applicants getting second chances, you're probably SOL.
DeleteYou could try reporting the proctor's behavior to his supervisors and then following that up with a call to Epic, but don't get your hopes up.
I applied two separate times. The first time, I took another job before interviewing, quit that job, reached back out to Epic and they said sorry, no. I applied again a month or so later though and was working within a month. That said, I'm now being fired. Oh well though, it was good experience and a great work environment. Just don't let them force you to quit once you're in. My TL tried some laughable lines that were clearly the product of some of their shoddy management training. Just smile and nod.
DeleteDoes the blacklist only apply for credentialed trainers or analysts? My friend took a job at another hospital. Her employed told epic she was leaving, and epic called her new employer and told them they couldn't hire her bc it would violate a " good install." Her new job is in risk and they tell her they may not be able to give it to her. Isn't this illegal? She isn't certified or signed a non compete. How can epic speak on her behalf like this? It doesn't seem right that they could deviate her career path without providing clause or proof of a contract. Does anyone know of the " good install" has specific terms?
ReplyDeleteI did a quick scan of the Quick Install guide on the Userweb, and it says nothing about who the customer can and can't hire to be on Good Install. If your friend has an email chain attesting to this, that might be useful for a "tortious employment interference" lawsuit.
DeleteWow this is insane because he does. Do you know if an official copy of the good install conditions are posted on the user web? Do you think if he called epic he could get a copy of the contract or would they try to cover it up? Shouldn't it be public knowledge since it affects employees who work with epic? I am just surprised there already hasn't been any lawsuits given that blacklisting in general is illegal. Not to mention maintaining confidentiality.
ReplyDeleteThe one on the user web (search for "good install" or "good install program") is official, but it doesn't have all the legalese that I'd expect from a document delineating financial agreements. Epic probably customizes it and lawyer-izes it for each customer in the program.
DeleteI strongly doubt Epic would hand over a copy of their contract, and I'm not sure if there's any way to require them to do so, short of legal action. The customer might, but the customer might instead say that hiring this guy isn't worth the trouble, and that's how Epic gets away with it, legal or not.
It may be illegal, but bringing a lawsuit against Epic would be expensive. One employee isn't worth it, and by the time the lawsuit ended, any non-competes would probably have timed out anyway.
You should go over the severance package of Epic (specifically, the letter). The wording of it is very interesting and I believe it allows for Epic to NOT pay any unemployment if you sign. I do have a standard copy of it that I can send to you if you want. They also left HR notes on it that says to leave out vacation pay at the whim of HR. It's very callous.
ReplyDeleteIf you post it, I'll publish it.
DeleteWhere do I post it to? I took an image of it (jpeg file) - I can send this to you, just let me know where.
DeleteLeave your email address (I won't publish it) and I'll reach out to you.
DeleteDid this get posted? I am in a similar process that was mentioned above and am debating whether to go the voluntary firing part or doing the probationary period.
DeleteAll the data was sent to me, I've just been lazy in posting it. I'll leave a comment here with a link once I put it up.
DeleteThanks. Do you know if going with the voluntary route and setting an end date removes the chance for unemployment benefits while I look for something else?
DeleteWould I be better off going with the probation and making them completely fire me?
As I understand it, if you make the decision to leave, you forfeit unemployment benefits. I'm not a lawyer, though, so I may be wrong.
DeleteYeah I was thinking that may be the case. Have you ever heard of Epic putting you on some sort of black list or won't let you get NVT if you're fired?
DeleteI wouldn't think so, but I've heard a couple rumors.
I was fired, and my NVTs are up to date. If you get fired for more traditional reasons (e.g., harassment, theft, corporate espionage), I could see Epic doing that. It's still questionably legal, but if they fire you because you're only working 44 hours a week instead of 64 hours, then no. You keep your certs and can take your NVTs.
DeleteJust had this talk with my TL today. Would you mind posting the letter?
DeleteIt's here: http://firedfromepic.blogspot.com/2015/01/by-request-epics-severance-agreement.html
DeleteI work in HR and previously worked at Epic, so I'd like to clarify a few things about Unemployment Insurance (UI) benefits determination that should help people in the future:
Delete1. The Department of Workforce Development considers being asked to leave to be the same as being fired. You've resigned voluntarily to make the transition smoother, but the employer initiated the separation. Don't worry about your UI if this is the case, but maybe print an email from your TL or try to get the terms of the resignation in writing for when DWD calls you to verify.
2. The only situation where an employer won't have to pay a separated employee UI is for a firing "with cause" (stealing, serious misconduct, continued work rule violations) - performance/business reasons are not a valid reason for an employer to block UI.
3. The severance language indicates that your UI can be reduced/not paid due to the severance. Which is true, but only for the duration of the severance. It's not permanent. Essentially, UI is considered "income replacement" - so if you receive severance pay for a few weeks, you still have income for those weeks. When it runs out or if it's at a low enough percentage of your previous income, UI will kick in.
I'll try to post in other places/respond to questions to help folks out. You shouldn't forgo your UI just because a crappy TL spouts lies or the Epic legalese tries to scare you or make it sound like you're ineligible.
This is a great blog! One picky comment: It is very hard for many of us to read white type on a black background. Web designers usually advise against it. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI like it as is. Black text on white seems too austere. However, I'll listen to the people. If enough folks comment, I'll change the theme from the slightly customized Simple template that it currently uses, to a different Simple template, one with a white background and black text.
DeleteI agree with the background comment ^ I have to squint at it to read some text.
DeleteBetter or worse?
DeleteI was contacted by EPIC for a job as a project manager. I'm interested in the job, but after reading this blog I'm not so sure anymore. Is it a bad place to work? Is this type of firing situation common? I'm nervous that if I get fired a year in it will hurt my future (especially since I'm only 22).
ReplyDeleteI too was contacted by EpIc for PM position, I'm over 40, and I'm a RN. I would have to relocate my family, but, after reading this epicism I'm not sure it's the best choice.
DeleteEpic is not for everyone; however there are a large number of folks who fit well/love it/stay longer than the rumored 2 years. I've been there nearly a decade as a project manager and I love it. Admin: sounds like you didn't have the greatest experience with your TL. Sorry about that.
DeleteI interviewed for a position that requires me to get Epic Certification in Clarity. The position is not directly with Epic but a customer who plans on implementing Epic in different hospitals. Does the one-year non-compete apply to me?
ReplyDeleteThere are different non-competes for analysts working for Epic clients, and I don't know the full details on those and they may vary by client. Generally, you violate the client non-compete if you leave your current employer within 90 days of a go-live.
DeleteFirst of all, thanks so much for this blog. So much insight. I'm an applicant at Epic (with an on site interview coming up) and I'm leaning towards working for Epic short term (around 6 months) especially after coming across this blog and because I also applied to graduate school and I'm hoping to start this fall if I get in. If not i would stay at Epic longer. However, Epic interview process is more efficient and quick than grad admissions process, so I don't know what to do now. Is it OK to tell Epic that you are looking potentially for a short term job since they have such a high turnover rate anyway? Or would they play this against you (like with this "black list")?
ReplyDeleteGeneral job applicant advice--in an At Will employment state (which Wisconsin is), you can leave (or be fired) for any or no reason (with certain exceptions, typically related to discrimination). You are under no obligation to tell Epic how long you plan to work there, and if you did, it would definitely hurt your chances of getting hired.
DeleteHiring and training cost Epic money, mostly in the form of paying your salary when you're not yet able to contribute to making money for Epic, and all the training staff, mentors, etc who spend their time helping you when they could be doing billable work for customers. It typically takes at least 9 months at Epic before you're self-sufficient as a TS (I don't know about the other positions), so leaving any time before then is a total waste of Epic's money and not really helpful to you if you want to pursue Epic work outside of Verona.
tl;dr: Don't tell them you want something short term. It will be used against you.
"Don't tell them you want something short term. It will be used against you."
DeleteYeah, no one wants to put 6 months into training someone - wasting valuable resources - just for them to flake out.
I got an email to schedule a phone interview for a trainer position - any insight on how the trainers are at Epic? I have acquaintances who have worked for Epic in other positions and said they'd tell me to run but that trainers might be somewhat better....
ReplyDeleteMost hospitals are in sore need of qualified trainers, if that suits your post-Epic strategy. As for how the role goes--I have no relevant anecdotes to share, but the organizational principals that shape middle management for other roles will hold true for trainers too.
DeleteI am currently EPIC certified. If I leave my current healthcare organization during an implementation and move to another state and work for another healthcare organization that is going to start the EPIC implementation, should I be concerned? Just moving for family reasons; no issues with current employer. Will I be on a blacklist or be denied access to EPIC User Web or cannot get EPIC log-in at new employer since I left during an implementation.
ReplyDeleteI think it mostly comes down to how your new and previous employer feel about it, and if it's an implementation that Epic is involved in. My employer implements a new clinic every couple of months, but we do it without Epic IS involvement. If people leave, it's no big deal and Epic is none the wiser.
DeleteIf your implementation is a major one with Epic staff personally involved, then it might be a bigger deal.
Hey this is off topic but I wonder if Epic changed the building name of Isis, given recent events. That's where Willow and others' offices were held when I last worked. Would be interesting to know...
ReplyDeleteThat's a good question. Also: Does anyone care to share the names of all of Epic's buildings? I could probably remember the names from Campuses 1 and 2, but Epic's built up a bit since I was there.
DeleteThere is now several other campuses apart from 1 and 2.
DeleteThe Farm Campus is composed of three buildings--Barn, Shed, and Stable. Not sure which applications live here but I'm fairly sure Beacon, Willow, and Phoenix are some.
The Wizard's Academy houses several Harry Potter-themed buildings, with the Library and Observatory complete and several more (Great Hall, Fortress, Classroom(?)) on the way. It sits north of Kohoutek and is currently only accessible by an underground passage through another new building/cafeteria named King's Cross.
Campus 5 is the Author's Campus, which is still under construction. Prospective names are Alice, Chocolate Factory, Verne, and a few others.
Hi Admin. Thanks a million for this blog. I came across this while I was searching for post-Epic blogs. This is a life saver for people who want to get out or being forced out of Epic. I was wondering if the post above (Purpose of this Blog) still stands true today, specifically "Don't Resign".
ReplyDeleteI stand by it. See also this recent comment:
Deletehttp://firedfromepic.blogspot.com/2015/01/by-request-epics-severance-agreement.html?showComment=1438374791235&m=1#c1690840881242881617
Hi Admin. I've read your blog for a while and always found it interesting.
ReplyDeleteWould you be open to a private discussion via email? I am a TS nearing my two year mark and have questions about your experience leaving the company.
Leave a comment with contact information, and I'll be in touch. I won't publish the contact info.
DeleteI had an abrupt departure from my Epic job like the ones described here after 2 years. I've have had a nightmare of a time finding a position at an Epic health system even though it's been well over 2 years now. Epic has denied me the ability to do NVT training as a consultant at the 1.7 year mark (I have that on official email) and Epic has told three employers that I shouldn't be working at their site even though it was clearly after 1 year. I don't have Epics' intrusions in writing, but all three terminations occurred right after I was signed up for NVT or a certification class. I moved for the first 2 but was expecting at the third one. Now I'm about to be offered another Epic position and believe this is going to happen again. What is the best option for me? I have emailed a few people I know at Epic but none of them will reply. I believe 1 individual is responsible for this block. I've written this person several times without reply.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if there are internal avenues for settling this issue.
Is starting a legal suit worth it? Is there an office at Epic I can appeal to?
Anyone with advice please reach out to sh8a@yahoo.com (not name). Everything will be kept confidential.
How would a contracting company that works with Epic know that a previous employee is working with a new Epic customer?
ReplyDeleteThat is a very good question, and I don't know the answer. Maybe the UserWeb revalidation process has something to do with it?
DeleteNew Epic organizations will call for reference checks on their new staff like any smart company. HR departments talk to each other...
DeleteWhat is the project manager's role at EPIC? And what about the Technical Service representative's (= engineer's) role? They said there are two types of TS - development focused and service focused? What are the differences between the two?
ReplyDeleteI was offered a full time position by an EMR consulting firm (physician tech partners- based in ohio); however, they want me to sign a non-compete clause regarding business enterprise for consulting and support services related to EPIC software. There is a 24 mo duration, which seems a little steep when considering the following:
ReplyDelete1.) I am already EPIC credentialed, which is of great benefit to my employer for consulting purposes since they cannot provide me with this status.
2.) Nothing was mentioned about a non-compete during initial negotiation for salary / benefits
3.) Title for role that I am being hired into is not specifically for EPIC, but rather for instruction on how to incorporate use of Dragon within the EPIC platform
While I need work, I cannot afford to sacrifice 2 years of wages, which are not at the level of an EPIC employee I am sure. It is my suspicion that the non-compete is unreasonable. Can anyone advise on my situation?
Would you be willing to speak with me about patient harm resulting from Epic EMR?
ReplyDeleteSure! Post something with your contact info (email preferred--I won't publish that post), and I'll be in touch.
DeleteNOT READING ALL THAT IS POSTED. DOES ANY OF THIS PERTAIN TO A FUTURE INTERN IN COMPUTER ENGINEERING?
ReplyDeleteFirst off, thank you so much for this blog - its super helpful! I recently put in notice of resignation because I will be leaving Madison to be with my boyfriend. My last day isn't for another month or so but I don't have another job lined up and I'm still looking. It's been a little discouraging because most of the jobs that show up when searching seem related to epic and I'm scared of violating the non compete agreement. It's unfortunate because I think being a customer analyst would be the perfect job for me. Working with customers has been my favorite part of my job now (as a TS)... but supporting 3+ customers and dealing with a bunch of other internal projects is just way too much. Do you think it would be okay if I applied for analyst positions at organizations that are installing or already live with Epic? Or should I find something temporary until the non compete year ends? Again, I'm having trouble finding jobs that I would be qualified for - it seems like i'm only qualified for jobs that I can't take because of the non compete and if that's the case I will probably end up being a waitress with a useless masters degree...
ReplyDeleteI have a short list of customers who flout the non-compete. I used to email it to people, but anonymity being what it is...
DeleteI always thought that if an ex-Epic employee applied to a potential customer (like the potential customers who have shortlisted Epic for their vendor--they used to be listed at the monthly all-staff meeting) before they had finalized the contract with Epic, then there would be no problem. You'd have to sell it with their HR though, and that might be difficult.
I had success working on an Epic client's helpdesk during the non-compete year. I was troubleshooting Epic, but didn't need any userweb access or facetime with TS/IS. I assisted with go-lives in command centers and whatnot, and was able to stay relatively current with Epic while remaining off their blacklist radar.
There are also a few companies that aren't competitors with Epic but use the same healthcare IT skillset--there's a software company that used to be in Middleton (I think) that did pharmacy stuff. I can't remember their name. They told me that they hire almost exclusively ex-Epic people and the non-compete doesn't matter. Henry Elliot is a staffing company for MUMPS/Cache programmers-you could try them. They're extremely friendly--I still get a Christmas card from a recruiter there, and I never actually worked for them.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis came in from a non-anonymous reader:
ReplyDeleteJust found your blog after having "the talk" with my TL a few weeks ago. I'm now halfway through that 2 month window and getting blocked at every turn as I try to find a next job to jump to. Do you have any new info on the non-competes or ways to get around them? I'm also intrigued to see your recent posts on the need for IT workers to unionize -- I've been talking in secret with some ex-Epic people about this idea and would be interested in your thoughts. Lastly, I'm amazed/disheartened to see that since you started this blog, not much has changed at Epic or in its MO. It's really an embarrassing shame.
Hey,
ReplyDeleteI am planning on applying to graduate schools in the upcoming months. Do you happen to know anything about their policies on asking TL's for a letter of recommendation?
I assume it's the same policy as their job references. Officially, they'll say that"yes, you worked there," but won't go into further details.
DeleteThere may be some discretion on the TL's part, but I can't say for certain.
I'm a former Epic TS who left (i.e. was pushed to resign) a few months ago, and am trying to figure out what to do after my non-compete is up. If you're willing, is there a way I can contact you for advice that isn't via blogspot comments?
ReplyDeletepost something with an email address--I won't publish the post but I will reach out to you.
DeleteOkay! In a reply to this or a separate reply to the whole thread?
DeleteAnywhere on the site. I'll see it.
DeleteI am a current Epic employee that is looking to make a geographical move and will need to find full time work. Do you know if the non-compete clause covers general positions at clincs and hospitals that use Epic (registration/customer service positions) I just need something with benefits. THanks!
ReplyDeleteI've always assumed that the non compete only apples to positions that would need userweb access or general contact with TS or IS.
DeleteYou should be fine in a non IT role.
How does leaving during an active implementation and/or go-live as a consultant/contractor affect your future job prospects? Can you be blacklisted for leaving a client abruptly? Not to pursue another client, but to take a long break.
ReplyDeleteI'll address this on the Blacklist post.
Delete